Have you heard of Godwin’s Law? According to Wikipedia, the law was formulated in 1990 by Mike Godwin, and it states:
“As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1.”
As a debate goes on, sooner or later someone’s going to call someone else a Nazi. A corollary to this argument is that the person who invokes Nazism automatically loses the argument, especially when the matter being debated has nothing to do with totalitarianism and genocide.
One extension of Godwin’s Law is that proponents of breastfeeding are sometimes called ‘breastfeeding Nazis’. In fact, the term is common enough that it has an entry in the urban dictionary. There are variations on the term, too. Boob Nazi. Lactation Nazi. You get the picture. There are articles that use the term, and people who apply it to themselves. I’ve even read it in books.
I quite dislike the term breastfeeding Nazi. Working to promote what you consider the very best thing for babies is not the same as perpetrating mass murder. Plus, using the word ‘Nazi’ in this way diminishes the atrocities that the Nazis committed. It turns the whole thing into a big joke. Genocide shouldn’t really be a punchline.
I might be particularly sensitive to this, as I consider myself a breastfeeding advocate. I want to do what I can to help mothers to reach their own personal goals. Not everyone will breastfeed, I know this. But if someone wants to breastfeed and comes to me for help, I’ll do my best. And if I see a societal obstacle (a booby trap, if you will) that is making breastfeeding difficult, I will speak out against it. It’s not about fanaticism or judgment, it’s about doing my part to make the world a little more breastfeeding-friendly.
Good intentions can’t always avoid hurt feelings. When you really want to breastfeed and it’s not going well, you can be pretty emotionally vulnerable. I certainly was when it wasn’t going well for me. I felt as if I were failing at a fundamental task of motherhood. I cried a lot. I still harbour bad feelings towards some of the nurses in the NICU who gave me conflicting advice when I was already overwhelmed and confused. In an ideal world they would have seen my vulnerability and made an effort to spend more time listening to me and supporting me.
If you were the recipient of an unkind comment at a low moment, my heart goes out to you. That should not have happened. Feeling angry or hurt is more than reasonable. Sharing your feedback or seeking a more sympathetic care provider is more than reasonable. Crying into your pillow and wanting to throw things may even be reasonable. But remember that sometimes people say the wrong thing at the wrong time, even well-meaning ones. Most everyone has stuck their foot in their mouth at least once. It might make us doofuses or maybe even jerks, but it doesn’t make us Nazis.
I am sure that there are breastfeeding proponents who lack sensitivity or tact. Just as there are fitness proponents, or elementary school teachers, or bus drivers who lack sensitivity or tact. That’s not cool. It’s even less cool when we begin judging others without walking in their shoes. It’s never appropriate to imply that someone is less worthy, less human or less caring because of the way that they feed their baby. Especially if we don’t know the first thing about that person’s story.
Just as it’s uncool to be judgmental of someone who isn’t breastfeeding, it’s uncool to dismiss a whole group of people who are sincerely trying to help. Two wrongs don’t make a right, as my grade 3 teacher said. So I’ll make you a deal. Don’t call me a Nazi, and I won’t call you one, either. I think everyone will be the happier for it.
What are your thoughts on the phrase ‘breastfeeding Nazi’? Do you think it’s funny, and I should lighten up? Do you think it’s sometimes well deserved? Or do you find it just as uncool as I do? I promise not to call you a Nazi if you disagree with me.
Um…Goodwin's law is kind of a joke. (As in parody.) It's basically saying that eventually some moron is going is going to pipe up with the Nazi word, and the discourse will fall apart from there.Calling someone a __Nazi isn't referencing genocide, it's referencing taking a hard-line, extremist position on an issue. Substitute "extremist" where you see Nazi, it'll make sense.Not agreeing or disagreeing with its use, just clarifying that when someone uses that term, they aren't referencing Hitler et al., they're after the extremist, uncompromising view points behind that movement.So, no one is saying "Suzy is like Hitler for her views on breastfeeding!" – they're saying, "Suzy has really extremist views on BFing and she refuses to compromise or see other views." It's probably in poor taste to use it, but it's certainly not referencing Jews, genocide, Hitler himself, or the like. People who use the term are likely to be unintelligent and probably have no concept of what they're saying, anyway (circle back to "Goodwin's law" there.)
Then they need to say "Suzy has really extremist views on BFing and she refuses to compromise or see other views." I realize, as I think most intelligent lactivists do, that people are not LITERALLY suggesting that breastfeeding advocates are determined to torture and bring genocide upon millions of people. This does not mean it is not in incredibly poor taste and even hurtful – as well as being about as rhetorically lazy and unimaginative as you can get. I can absolutely see why people get legitimately upset about this, not just butthurt, but literally personally upset, especially if they are Jewish themselves, and/or have family that was murdered in the Holocaust. Call us extremists or fascists, if you will, but I actually do agree that Nazi is completely inappropriate.
Don't misunderstand; not saying it's not in poor taste or uncool. If advocates understand that this isn't a literal reference, they need to stop using literal references when criticize people for using the term. " Working to promote what you consider the very best thing for babies is not the same as perpetrating mass murder. Plus, using the word ‘Nazi’ in this way diminishes the atrocities that the Nazis committed. It turns the whole thing into a big joke. Genocide shouldn’t really be a punchline."Genocide isn't a punchline and mass murder isn't in the mind of a person using the term "BFing Nazi" *unless* we're going by literal definitions.Should those affected by the Holocaust be offended? Perhaps by the cavalier use of the word, but not by the intention behind it. Because the intention behind it has zilch to do with actual events. Are the people using the term morons? Almost certainly. Do they have a clue? Doubtful. They're taking a particular brand of extremism out of historical context, using it improperly, and they probably don't know there's even a problem with what they're doing. They shouldn't be using it, and it seems that everyone except the ones doing it, know that.When you try to refute the use of a word in one context by placing it in another, it doesn't work. That's what I'm saying.
Amber, I so agree with you! That term really bothers me. And while I get very frustrated by the negative judgmental fear-mongering that goes on in parts of the breastfeeding advocacy world (Thank goodness there are breastfeeding advocates like you that are so supportive, positive and non-judgmental), there is no excuse for that term. None. I am pretty sure I was guilty of uttering the term at least a couple times very early in my introduction to mother hood- but when I thought about what I said it made me feel bad. And wrong.
kathleen’s last post … Toddlers and OCD
Amy, I know that Godwin's Law is a joke. I understand that. But it's relevant here because piping up with Nazi word in reference to breastfeeding and the resulting falling-off of discourse is the same as piping up with it in an internet debate about Mac vs. PC, in my view. Sooner or later, someone references fascism.I'm an engineer and I've taken a lot of physics and probability classes. I understand that Godwin's Law isn't the same as the Theory of Relativity.I also understand that this isn't a literal reference in the mind of the person making it. But I still think that it has the result of making Nazism into a joke. Because then 'Nazi' is no longer about actual Nazis, instead it's about someone who was mean. And so by literalizing its use, I'm trying to paint a picture of why it shouldn't be used this way. It's the cavalier use of the word, and not the intention, that I have issue with.In any case, if we all agree that it's uncool, then we're on the same page anyway.
no, i don’t think you need to lighten up. there are jerks who are breastfeeding advocates just as there are jerks who are formula advocates. i wouldn’t deny that those people exist. you aren’t one of them!
but, like you said, using the word “nazi” devalues what the people persecuted by the actual naz’s went through, something very serious and very real and worthy of our respect. i don’t think it should be used in ANY regard, about breastfeeding or politics or grammar. none of those things involve actual human extermination. it’s used for shock value and nothing else.
the Grumbles’s last post … this calls for a celebration
It’s all Seinfeld’s fault, really. The “Soup Nazi” from his show is what has prompted the overuse of the word Nazi to represent anyone who is harsh when doling out goods or advice. At least, that’s when I think it became overly popular.
While in the case of soup it was intended to be funny, when used to describe people who are trying to advocate for their beliefs, it’s neither funny nor is it really intended to be so. It’s intended to belittle the beliefs and the advocates, and make them feel guilty for voicing an opinion that doesn’t have universal acceptance. Which is just as un-cool as the advocates who are making the harsh remarks that prompt the use of the phrase in the first place.
I agree that not everyone who is a breastfeeding advocate is tactful 100% of the time. But that can be said about any cause. You don’t hear much about “right to bear arms nazis”. But you hear lots of talk of breastfeeding nazis and feminazis. I think in the end the term says more about the people who use it than it does about the people they apply it to.
Anna’s last post … The Great Cloth Diaper Experiment
As a German I have a strong feelings about anyone referring to anything as “XYZ-Nazi”, or “…like Hitler” or “Faschist something”.
I am consider myself as being pro-breastfeeding, but this doesn’t mean that I am against bottle feeding. I dislike anything that makes parents feel like they are doing anything wrong. Breastfeeding would be so much easier if we had available at hand before we give birth and especially in those first weeks after giving birth. Proper education, proper information. I dream of a society where we can all parent in the way that fits us, that suits us without judging other people for making different choices. I will not homeschool or unschool, but hey, if that’s your choice let’s chat. That sort of thing.
I guess I am just dreaming of a better world.
Mel’s last post … Meatfree Monday- Canellini bean- courgette pasta salad
I guess that's the point of what I was saying. We agree that it's uncool, but I just don't think this is the most constructive way to address it.
My grandparents were impriosned in the camps so I know how horrible the Nazi’s were. But I’m not even the slightest bit offended by someone saying XYZ-Nazi because, to me, it’s just a word. It only has the power that I give it. Dogs bark, cats meow, birds chirp – those noises don’t offend me. Words are just sounds made by people, so they really should offend anyone, unless the person hearing it decides to be offended.
I agree wholeheartedly with Anna. She said all I was going to say.
I like Mike’s point too… you don’t have to give any power to the noise other’s make.
*pol’s last post … Junes Mission Update
I'm not sure I understand….why do people who weren't affected by the Holocaust get to decide if those who were are allowed to be offended?
Calling someone a Nazi or a movement Nazi-sh isn’t kind at all. After doing a quick google search on the word Nazi, one part of the Wikipedia definition really stuck out to me…”The Nazis believed in the supremacy of”…(their race). I am a breastfeeding advocate. I believe that breast feeding is best. I get frustrated some times when moms don’t try or can’t see the benifit in breast feeding. I was able to breast feed both of my daughters a little bit. Supplementing was the name of our game. I have http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breasts hypolplasia of my breasts and therefore, could not produce enough milk to sustain my children (even with added medication to increase my supply). I didn’t know this when I had my first daughter and spiraled into post partum depression due in large part to my inability to breast feed and the informaion I was being fed by breast feeding advocates who told me over and over again that I wasn’t trying right, hard enough, long enough or well enough. When Emma refused my left breast they sighed and told me I was giving up on my daugther and I slipped further into depression. I hated breast feeding. I was apparently a failure as a mother if my own daugther woudln’t take my milk..and those advocates kept reminding me how weak I was. The advocates I was in contact with believed very much in the supremecy of their convictions in regards to breastfeeding. There was no other option. Breast wasn’t just best, it as only.
As soon as I was pregnant with Hannah I rushed to see a lactation consultant, a former OBGYN who after a few months diagnosed me with hypoplasia of the breasts. The load that was taken off my shoulders was tremendous. I understood that it wasn’t because I wasn’t trying hard enough, well enough, often enough. It actually had nothing to do with me as a mother…it was out of my control. I did have a small amount of milk I could produce. I could breasteed and supplement. I could be a sucsess as a mother. Armed with this education I happily would pull out a bottle in public and feed my daugther. If (and there was always a comment) a comment was made about breast being best while I was bottle feeding I was very happy to kindly enlighten them on what was happening in my boobs…or not happening I guess.
I know there are wonderful breastfeeding advocates out there. I wish I had of experienced one when I needed it. Instead my experiences were with women whose beliefs were so strong an supreme that there wasn’t room for failure or a different path to be walked. Now though, when I meet a new mom or talk with a soon to be mom, I encourage breastfeeding all that I can, but I share my story too. There are many different approaches to breast feeding. I wish my own journey had of been different. I wish I had of been able to cuddle my babes to my breast and nourish them. But, I couldn’t. Even writing this is making me sad and teary eyed for what that might have been like for us. There is no shame though in not being sucessful in your attempts and mothers who can’t, they need support and kindness too. And that is where I come in I think.
I wish you and I had of lived closer at the time Amber. I have a feeling you wouldn’t have come from a place of judgement when all my attempts failed and I had a baby rapildy loosing weight with breath that smelled like turpentine.
Almost five years later though, I have healthy regular children. I look at my daughters and I don’t feel guilty for not being able to do more. I did so much for them, went to the depths for them and they are wonderufl today.
Heather’s last post … Steeeeeve – 1 Dad
I know your story, and I know that you did everything you could. But in terms of how we should relate to others, it doesn’t really matter what the back-story is. Judgment and questioning motives or effort pretty much never helps. It’s not going to advance your cause to incite guilt in a mom who may already be struggling, or to lecture a mom who made her own choice for her own reasons.
I’m shocked that you get comments when you bottle-feed in public. I’ve heard the same thing from other people. I find this just as unacceptable as questioning someone for publicly breastfeeding. Feeding a baby, however you’re doing it, is not an invitation to question someone’s parenting. That’s just over the line, and I’m sorry it happened so frequently.
That is definitely a valid point. It's true that in many ways I lack a real perspective on whether 'Nazi' is OK as a joke or not. Although I do think it's OK for me to say I don't want to be called one. But someone who had actually experienced the Holocaust would be far better able to speak to this than anyone here.
I don’t tend to get stressed over slurs like that. I understand that they’re expressing dissatisfaction over something and I listen to that instead. I don’t think these people are actually consciously comparing someone to a genocidal maniac. I can see how it would be an upsetting term if I stopped to analyze it but really I spend so much time being frustrated about one thing or the other so I choose not to fret over this particular issue.
Marilyn’s last post … It’s My SITS Day-
I am also a German who is very familiar with the term Nazi as I had family stuck on both sides of politics of WWII but I don’t find the way that it is used in colloquial everyday conversations offensive. The significance has been diluted by the years and usages like “Soup Nazi” in Seinfeld.
The definition of Totalitarianism is ” a political system where the state, usually under the control of a single political person, faction, or class, recognizes no limits to its authority and strives to regulate every aspect of public and private life wherever feasible.” (Wikipedia)
As a women who CHOSE not to breastfeed, sadly, this WAS my experience in the hospital despite having legitimate and educated reasons for not breastfeeding my children. I had no place to rest. I was plagued in the hospital, at home by public nurses, over the phone….relentlessly making me feel like a poor mother. Those people who made my first weeks after birth a vortex of guilt and failure deserve strong language. They were insensitive. They didn’t care for me, they only carried their own agenda at all costs.
When I use the term Nazi, I do so flippantly without the malice that is historically embedded in the word. Maybe that is wrong. It does a disservice to those who died and maybe lessens the atrocities that occurred in WWII. Maybe I need to widen my vocabulary to find more appropriate adjectives for those extremists (of all walks of life…I have a commonly called Parking Nazi on my street) in my life. Thanks for giving me something to think about.
I don’t know why judgements made to mothers are so common…and so very uncool. I think you are doinga great job Amber, keep it up.
Heather’s last post … Steeeeeve – 1 Dad
Personally, once a person says the word Nazi I stop hearing anything else they have to say. If you are not capable of having a conversation without stooping to that term, then you really don’t have anything to say worth listening to. It’s offensive, hate filled, and disgusting; and most likely so is the person using it.
Summer’s last post … Monday Evening
I don’t believe the word “Nazi” in its true sense (i.e. member of genocide movement) is intended when it is put with the word “breastfeeding.” Rather, it takes on the more colloquial “soup Nazi” connotation of one who is rigid in their demands of others — to the point of the absurb (and therefore funny), and with, as Heather suggested, with the air of supremacy or self-righteousness. This more colloquial use is really not intended to suggest the true/original Nazi movement (IMHO), otherwise I doubt that Seinfeld, who is Jewish, would have written it into his show.
But, would I like to be called a Nazi, even in this more colloquial fashion? I guess it depends. If someone called me a “grammar Nazi,” I’d chuckle. I’d assume they meant it light-heartedly.
However, I don’t believe people use the term “breastfeeding Nazi” in a light-hearted way. I think the lactivist movement has, in many ways, earned itself a reputation for being rigid and extremist. So, the term is indeed intended to be offensive when used. (And as someone on the receiving end, you would have every right to feel offended, of course.) I do agree that “it’s uncool to dismiss a whole group of people.” I really admire the way you write and advocate for breastfeeding in a manner that is welcoming and empathetic. And if I wanted support, you’d be the first I’d call.
But that’s the thing … IF I wanted help, I would contact you … breastfeeding advocates often INSIST on helping — calling the hospital room, showing up at your doorstep, approaching you in a playgroup. I think it’s like a religious group showing up on my doorstep — yes, I do believe they “sincerely want to help” me. But did I ask for their help? No.
Like everything in life, I guess it just depends on your point of view because I do understand that it gets a bit complicated here … Breastfeeding advocates understand that many women want help but don’t know where to turn, or that women are being provided misinformation in the hospital, and therefore a proactive approach may be considered a necessary strategy.
Anyhow … is it right to call you a name? No! it is not. And I’d stick up for you if someone ever did! (I’m way tougher than I look!
If you want to hear from someone who was affected by the Holocaust, read this: http://www.themudflats.net/2009/08/21/nazis/
I guess I’m a little ambivalent here too. I think word usage and language evolution and slippage occur, so I’m not rigid in insisting that anyone who uses the term Nazi is being disrespectful to holocaust victims. You say ‘it’s uncool to dismiss a whole group of people who are only trying to help” and “it doesn’t make US Nazis”, but the thing is, Amber, like you said, you’re a breastfeeding advocate. In my mind, you’re the furthest thing away from what I would mean if I used or thought the term ‘breastfeeding Nazi’. But the ‘lactation consultant’ in the hospital who harangued my roommate who had just given birth, and the people who write letters to the paper saying ‘breast is best – period’, and the La Leche League person who berated my sister’s friend who was going to wean her two-year-old because she was trying to get pregnant again and had miscarried twice already? These are something other than advocates. They are zealots. I think some people could be forgiven if people like this cause the term ‘Nazi’ to cross their minds. Good food for thought here, though.
allison’s last post … The Young Girl and the Sea
Thanks for sharing that, Annie. It makes a far more eloquent point than I ever could.
In my language you couldn’t use the term “nazi” lightly, and I can’t judge the kind of cultural connotations it has in English.
About breastfeeding, I just read this:
http://parenting.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/06/29/is-breastfeeding-creepy/
Francesca’s last post … Corner View summer
While I have used the term Nazi on rare occasions, as in- a couple of times when I likened the kids to be Nazis (where the term Nazi actually refers, basically, to a fascist. Or-”: a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control “) But, considering that that control was taken to the extreme, genocide, the term leaves a bitter taste in ones mouth. When I used the term, it was in a light-hearted, joking manner not meant to offend. Though, *meant to* and what actually resulted may very well be two different things.
But I won’t keep babbling.
I tend to agree with Coffee With Julie- The term “breastfeeding Nazi” is meant to offend in most cases, I think, maybe turning an advocate into a laughingstock. And anything meant to demean, belittle, another person based on lifestyle (breast feeder or otherwise) is- well- not cool.
I might also add that my knowledge of the Holocaust basically extends to my having read The Diary of Anne Frank. So when it comes to knowing the actual root of the term, consider me ignorant. And feel free to correct me.
Jennifer’s last post … A Life Loved
Language matters. As a history teacher, I was very clear with my students that they needed to be very careful when referencing Nazis, fascists, or Hitler.People who use the term "Nazi" because they think they are being clever need to understand what they are really saying.Most people using this in discussion know (at least vaguely) who Hitler was and what the Nazis did. Just like kids calling things "gay" have some vague understanding of the dual use of that word. If they don't, they should learn.Pointing out why it is wrong to use inexact and potentially hurtful language is constructive, in my opinion.I'm all for humor…and in theory anything is fair game for a joke…but casual use of "Nazi" as a put down is not humor. It is lazy argumentation and insulting.
Candace – You nailed it.
I’ve actually used the term receipt nazi, referring to myself in the role of doing finances for my family, but in the sense of someone who is keeping a tight reign on things, as some other commenters have suggested. Dictionary.com gives one definition of “nazi” (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/nazi) as a person who is fanatically dedicated to or seeks to control a specified activity, practice, etc.
This definition fairly accurately describes many proponents of breastfeeding, but your post made me really think twice about the casual use of the word “nazi” in this manner. On one hand, I think if we give a word with negative associations/history too much power, then it continues to inflict hurt. On the other hand, it could be just as damaging for a word to become so commonplace that people are generally desensitized to the hurtful impact it can have.
Given that breastfeeding is often such an emotionally charged issue (like just about every other parenting decision), it’s perfectly reasonable not to cause unnecessary friction by throwing out the “breastfeeding nazi” label. People need to learn to discuss different points of view (on any topic) respectfully. I think that goes for breastfeeding advocates and formula feeding moms equally. Too often I see Internet discussions of hot button issues degrade to a level of rude and nasty behavior that most people would never exhibit face-to-face.
As a mom who had no choice but to formula feed due to almost no milk supply, many comments criticizing formula feeding moms with guilt-inducing or accusatory statements (like the first comment on the link above to NYT Motherlode: “Well, if she would rather trust industrial food manufacturing corporations with the responsibility of your infant’s nutrition, far be it from me to stop her. I hear that they are now making chocolate baby formula…”) have often made me wonder what my son is missing out on since my body didn’t work the way it’s supposed to. As a mom who wanted very much to breastfeed, but had no choice other than to rely on formula for food, this type of incendiary statement still hurts. Unfortunately, the wrong person or the wrong words at the wrong time in a mom’s life can do a lot of damage and I believe that this type of judgmental attitude from certain “advocates” is one possible source of the “breastfeeding nazi” label. Two wrongs don’t ever make a right, though.
The breastfeeding advocates/activists that I follow are all sensitive to situations like mine and other women who struggle and I haven’t seen these types of judgmental statements come from any of them (I’m including Amber in this, naturally). The information that these women provide is so valuable for women who don’t know about the benefits of breastfeeding or who are intimidated by common myths. I hope that the more women who deal with breastfeeding issues the way these women do, the better the communication will be with those who question breastfeeding – and hopefully those who tend to harsh statements will learn to take a kinder, gentler approach.
Karen’s last post … Wordless Wednesday- Sleepy
Where’s your tweet button Amber? This is so fantastic. I’m just sorry I’m so late to comment. WHat bugs me the most about this comment is that many people throw this word around in a joking way. I know of people who consider themselves breastfeeding Nazis and laugh about it. I’m glad you brought to attention the fact that this word is getting way too over used to the point that it is taking on a new meaning. I think we need to let it remain meaning what it originally means. To be respectful of its power if nothing else.
Melodie’s last post … We Interrupt This Breastfeeding Post…